An initial group met on-line on November 21, 2002 to discuss the project. Those who attended were:

Scott Aikens – Consulant & Co-founder, MN E-Democracy Christopher Barber – Associate, AmericaSpeaks Sheila Collins – Network Community Manager, The Network of Alliances Bridging Race & Ethinicity Ned Crosby – Citizens Jury process; Citizens Initiative Review Joseph Goldman – Associate, AmericaSpeaks Sandy Heierbacher – Director, Dialogue to Action Initiative; National Conference on Dialogue & Deliberation Robert Heverly – Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project

Chun Li – Student, New York Law School Brook Manville – Chief Learning Officer, Saba Software Jed Miller – Community Director, Web Lab Carlos Motta – Co-founder, CBEJI; Lawyer, SCBF Law Firm Beth Noveck – Associate Professor, New York Law School Caio Pereira – Fellow, Yale Law School Information Society Project Richard Sherwin – Professor, New York Law School John Spady – Forum Foundation and University of Washington Michael Weiksner – Chairman & Founder, e-thePeople.org

FOR A SUMMARY OF DISCUSSION, PLEASE SEE NOV 21 SUMMARY

Chat Interactive Democracy Inventory started, Thu Nov 21 09:24:17 EST 2002

Hello Dear Beth. I and my colleague Henrique Martins are lawyers in Brazil and founders of the Brazilian Centre of Internet Legal Studies - www.cbeji.com.br. We are honoured to participate in this chat. -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment:

Hi there... -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

Greetings, we'll hang on a few minutes and wait for everyone to arrive. -- Beth Noveck speak

We are expecting about 20-22 people. -- Beth Noveck speak

If you've just joined us, welcome. We are going to start in a few minutes. Just waiting for others to arrive. -- Beth Noveck speak

In the meantime, if you want to type up a quick introduction of yourself and send it, I'll hold them for when we get started. -- Beth Noveck speak

Should we have idle chit-chat while we wait, like on a conference call? -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment: Good idea

I'm sorry there's no hold music. -- Beth Noveck speak

I could sing, but I honestly don't think anyone would really want me to do that (though in unchat singing you can't hear how off-key I am) -- Robert Heverly Moderator comment: Excellent point

You might call the sounds that come from my mouth "unsinging" if you could hear them. -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment:

we have a new category - sing my message -- Chun Li Moderator comment:

Why don't we go ahead and get started and, as new people arrive, I will interrupt with instructions and salutations. -- Beth Noveck speak

Welcome! Thank you all for joining us to provide input on this project. A couple of items before we start. If, at any point, you experience technical difficulties or have a question about how to use the system, use the WHISPER button and send your question to Chun Li, who can help you. You can also call us at 212-431-2355. -- Beth Noveck speak

SPEAK sends a message to the moderator for posting, SHOUT bypasses the moderator and posts directly and WHISPER sends a private message to the selected participant. -- Beth Noveck speak

If you see someone come in whom you know, you can whisper to them and help them catch up. The CHAT ARCHIVE (upper right) has the transcript running. -- Beth Noveck speak

what's the preferred protocol for this discussion? speaking or shouting? -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

We could have a long discussion and debate the rules! But I'd propose speaking as the default and shouting when you want to interrupt or feel passionate. -- Beth Noveck speak

"sing my message" isn't a feature yet, alas. -- Beth Noveck speak

One quick tip: If you have a longer message to post, send the first half with ... to indicate that we should hold the queue until you've finished the thought. -- Beth Noveck speak

While I go over the agenda, why doesn't everyone type a short introduction and "speak" it and let us know if there's anything you'd like to add to the agenda. -- Beth Noveck speak

Would go with the Walt Whitman theme of Bodies Electric, no? -- Scott Aikens Moderator comment:

Also - if you are addressing someone else's comment, please refer to them by name. -- Beth Noveck speak

My thought is that we would 1) tell you briefly about the purpose behind this project, 2) answer any questions about the current draft, and 3) then talk about how to improve it. I am especially curious to hear your thoughts on the scope this should have, whether we are asking the right questions to capture the information and whether we are using the right "labels" to index the information. -- Beth Noveck speak

First the introductions....... -- Beth Noveck speak

Hi everyone, I'm Rob Heverly, a Fellow with the Information Society Project at Yale Law School, where I'm working mostly on interactions of technology and society (oh yes, and law, definitely law). I joined the ISP after receiving my LLM from Yale Law, and prior to that spent nine years at the Government Law Center in Albany, NY, a neutral, nonpartisan think-tank type operation at Albany Law School. -- Robert Heverly Moderator comment: No Comment

Intro: Hi, My name is Joe Goldman and I'm an associate with AmericaSpeaks. I'm currently at the Kennedy School getting my masters in public policy. -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment: No Comment

Hi, everyone! I am Sandy Heierbacher, director of the Dialogue to Action Initiative and the recent National Conference on Dialogue & Deliberation. This is my first unchat, and I'm excited to see how it works. Also excited about this project! -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment:

I am Caio Pereira, a JSD candidate at Yale Law School, and a fellow at the Information Society Project. I got my LLM at Yale last year. -- Caio Pereira Moderator comment:

Brook Manville, Chief Learning Officer of Saba Software, and student of democracy since I did PhD in ancient history in 1979. Shortly to publish book (Feb) on ancient athenian democracy and relevance to governing knowledge workers in contemporary organizations. -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

I'm Scott Aikens, and I'm an independent consultant currently working in NYC. -- Scott Aikens Moderator comment:

Anyone else? -- Beth Noveck speak

Hi, I'm Chris Barber, an independent consultant and associate of AmericaSpeaks. -- Christopher Barber Moderator comment:

Into from John Spady: Good morning everyone from the Pacific Northwest. I'm with Forum Foundation and the University of Washington. I support that idea of a taxonomy and a calendar. I am interested in "Symbolic Dialogue" -- how to scale the benefits of small group dialogues to larger geographicaly dispersed populations of people. I will have to leave by 11:45 Eastern time. -- John Spady Moderator comment:

Thanks for getting up so early! -- Beth Noveck speak

Hi all- Mike Weiksner here, Chairman & founder of e-thePeople.org. We host deliberative conversations on our web site hosted on newspaper web sites, like the Chicago Sun TImes. This is my first unchat. -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment:

My name is Carlos Motta. I'm lawyer at SCBF Law Firm and also I am the co-founder of CBEJI (I would like to invite everyone to access its site and join) - www.cbeji.com.br, a ngo entity. -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment:

Carlos, where are you physically? -- Beth Noveck speak

I asked Scott to say more...He writes....I co-founded MN E-Democracy, did my Ph.D. at the University of Cambridge in social and political sciences, coordinated Nexus the Policy and Ideas Network, and have been developing content strategy for public media in Connecticut and California since 1997. -- Scott Aikens -- Beth Noveck speak

São Paulo, Brazil -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment:

I'm Ned Crosby, inventor of the Citizens Jury process and working on the Citizens Initiative Review in some western state. -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment:

Hey, I'm Jed Miller, community director at Web Lab. I develop and manage our Small Group Dialogue events, using our tool and technique to foster thoughtful, high-quality discussion... in an A-synchronous way. Recent projects include Listening to the City with AmericaSpeaks and Project 540, a national High School civic engagement initiative funded by Pew. -- Jed Miller Moderator comment:

My name is Beth Noveck. I am an Associate Professor Law at New York Law School. The Democracy Design Workshop is the umbrella for the democratic problem-solving-through-design projects that I do here and with my colleagues at the Information Society Project at Yale Law School. Oh, yes, and Unchat is one of my those design experiments that I developed together with Ben Barber. -- Beth Noveck speak

Chun Li is helping a latecomer get a password but he's a student here at New York Law School and will rejoin us in a minute. -- Beth Noveck speak

Okay, some quick background.... -- Beth Noveck speak

There are a number of good "bibliographies" of democratic projects and scholarship currently on the web but they require a lot of hard work to maintain and do not necessarily capture all that's out there. Taking a cue from what we've learned working on web-site rating and filtering, the idea for the site is to let people post their own projects and scholarship and describe them. -- Beth Noveck speak

The basic features of the site would be an interactive questionnaire that would prompt the user with questions based on their responses to prior questions. In other words, if you're an organization you'll get one set of questions. If you're an individual scholar, describing some research, you'll get another. -- Beth Noveck speak

People will be able to use multiple terms to describe themselves and their work. We have created a set of theoretical, ideological and activity-oriented "labels" and could use some input on those. -- Beth Noveck speak

Let me stop my monologue and ask if there are any questions about the mechanics of the project first. -- Beth Noveck speak

Who would host and maintain the site? Funding? -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

Funding thus far is coming from the Council of Europe, America Speaks (via Hewlett) and us. -- Beth Noveck speak

We would host and maintain it here and are looking for other places to host/mirror the site for maximum visibility. -- Beth Noveck speak

who's the audience for the site? what motivates participants to fill out registration & keep their info up to date? -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment: Excellent point

and what is intended objective? -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

These are questions that we should discuss as a group. -- Beth Noveck speak

But let me share a bit of my thinking and questions with you.... -- Beth Noveck speak

I've gotten a lot of good questions from people which I'm holding -- Beth Noveck speak

The thought is that we should try to act as a clearinghouse and repository of information about democratic projects and scholarship worldwide... -- Beth Noveck speak

The focus would not necessarily be "electronic" but broader in order to capture a lot of interesting and applicable theoretical work and deliberative and participatory work in other domains. -- Beth Noveck speak

The intended audience initially are practitioners and scholars in the field to learn about each others work and... -- Beth Noveck speak

to develop a global sense of what's out there. -- Beth Noveck speak

that's of course a fine idea...is there really no one else doing that already? -- Brook Manville Moderator comment: Does anyone want to respond to that?

How will this differ from some other large web sites, such as the Civics Practices Network or TANN? -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment: No Comment

The difference is that this will be a self-labeling site. -- Beth Noveck speak

With a dynamic set of labels. -- Beth Noveck speak

But perhaps, Ned, you can say more about what this should or shouldn't be and how those work? -- Beth Noveck speak

TANN and CPN don't seem to be very up to date -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment: Interesting - please expand

Well, I've been trying to do just that with the Dialogue to Action Initiative, but Beth's right about it being hard to keep up with. The Civic Practices Network hasn't been updated since 1998 - this would be a dynamic service that people would want to keep up with. -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment:

And it would be something that all these organizations can use...it's an open project and we might think about how it can be integrated? How different organizations might contribute to fleshing out the questions/taxonomy for different parts? -- Beth Noveck speak

I believe TANN's search capabilities are also much more limited -- Chun Li -- Chun Li Moderator comment: Excellent point

The same is true about TANN -- not really updated in a while. Demos tried to "map the field" but seemed to really focus on electoral democracy and advocacy organizations. As far as I know, there really is nothing out there. -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

Will you be starting from scratch, or might you use some of the info that's already available on the web so that people can see the kinds of things you intend to feature? If you don't enter a lot of info yourselves first, it may take a lot of time to build the info base since you'll be waiting for others to input data. -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment: No Comment

We've created a draft for you to critique/add to/edit/rewrite based on what's out there. I agree that we need to get a critical mass of people to input stuff and seed such a site to create a sense of "there" there. -- Beth Noveck speak

Any thoughts in response to your own question, Sandy? -- Beth Noveck speak

I agree with Mike that motivation, incentive (bribery?) and even just notification to participants that they ought to register is a potential hurdle. -- Jed Miller Moderator comment: Excellent point

Do you think, Jed, Mike, that being a part of mapping the field is enough incentive? -- Beth Noveck speak

We come back to the question of audience and what it's incentives are? -- Beth Noveck speak

Publicity is key. It would be important to have local partners in many countries, asking for contributions -- Caio Pereira Moderator comment: Excellent point

I think Sandy's point is a good one. Joseph is right about TANN not having lots of resources. Could you gather materials from some of the larger existing web sites and put them up as a starter? -- Ned Crosby Good idea. -- Beth Noveck speak

I tend to think there needs to be something on the site beyond just the database. People need more reasons to continue to go to the site to see what's new. -- Joseph Goldman Here's one thought.... -- Beth Noveck speak

We thought it would have an automatic 6-month e-mail notification system to remind people to update their content. But do you have other ideas, Joe? -- Beth Noveck speak

Remember we're logging this conversation, so just throw things out and we'll summarize them afterwards! -- Beth Noveck speak

I guess there's really a first step which is an inventory of inventories--to get started. -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

is this a model that's been used successfully in other areas before? can you give us a few examples? I'm thinking of the demos project, but I don't know if other people think it is good or not -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment: No Comment

I don't that this model has been used in this domain before. It could also be re-used in other domains. But the idea is to take advantage of the interactivity of the technology more effectively. -- Beth Noveck speak

I would participate, personally. I have participated in demos's mapping, and others, but I've always felt that the proposition was low-risk, low-reward. -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment:

I also think that there will be a need to specify some clearer boundaries over time..that will be keyed to some kind of mission. If you include anyone doing any research on democracy, for example, this thing will explode. -- Brook Manville Is that good or bad, Brook? -- Beth Noveck speak

Beth: I don't have a lot of ideas. One is some kind of "news" section with new things going on in the field -- like what Lars has been putting together with the Deliberative Democracy Dispatches. Links to tools.... -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

Yes, a reminder of past content and request for update would be helpfule -- John Spady Moderator comment:

Tom Atlee has put quite a bit of work into his democracy innovations web site. He would not have much time to go through it with someone, but it would be interesting for someone to check out his list to see if he has references others do not. -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment: Good idea

I'm feeling, even after 10 minutes here, that purpose and mission are key first steps...the boundaries will fall out of that naturally, once that's agreed. -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

Beth: A mailing-list, which participants could choose to join when they first register might also be good. Something like the "digital divide" list of the Benton Foundation. This could create an ongoing discussion about democracy, linked to the inventory, providing incentives for people to join -- Caio Pereira Moderator comment:

Let's talk about Brook's question of purpose and mission for a sec... -- Beth Noveck speak

There is also the potential for a blog-style area for discussion of ongoing news in the area . . . -- Robert Heverly Moderator comment:

A quickie solution that some content sites use is 'feeds' and other partnerships with like-minded news agencies, journals, magazines. -- Jed Miller Moderator comment:

Let people contribute what ever they have and have energy to keep updated and maintained. Entries should likely expire automatically after some time unless updated or extended. A database is very good at sorting through things and providing what is asked for -- why should we limit the resources that people want to provide. -- John Spady Moderator comment:

I think I've emptied the queue of all the feature suggestions we just had so back to the quesiton of mission. -- Beth Noveck speak

Purpose: Keep practioners and academics aware of all of the other good work going on in other parts of the country/world -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment: Does anyone want to respond to that?

good work on what? -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

Good work in participatory/deliberative democracy -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment: Does anyone disagree?

"Good work" is in the eye of the poster. -- John Spady ;-) -- Beth Noveck speak

By having a self-describing site we don't have to make judgments about good. This leads to a question that was asked earlier... -- Beth Noveck speak

There will be any kind of filter to publish the information? -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment: No Comment

The info would have to go through an editor before posting to the site. -- Beth Noveck speak

Not everyone in the field use the terms participatory democracy or deliberative democracy. We wouldn't want to exclude too many people. -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment: Excellent point

Joe- should the matrix group focus on all of delib demo or just online delib democracy? -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment:

so someone doing old fashioned constitutional democracy is not a target? -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

Certainly the audiences for the Civics Practices Network and TANN are different. Will it be possible to cover the whole field of deliberative/participatory democracy and not have to worry about the question of audience? -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment:

if you keep it wide open at the beginning, which is fine, you will either have to focus after while, or accept that some people will fall off/splinter off into what's interesting to them -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

Michael -- I think it is on all delib demo, not just online -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

I think a big challenge this program will have - and one the 'field' has in general, is one of terminology. There are so many communities of practice that could benefit from this, but they identify in different ways. I love the idea of a self-identifying site. But I need to know more about what that means. -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment:

a question lurking beneath the surface, once again mission issue, is is this just a sort of library resource, or is there a goal to create a community of people interested in creating some kind of change? -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

(this from earlier but relevant here)....Not just aware of all of the other good work, but able to establish collaborations, share their successes and tools with others, provide a place for the public to learn about these issues (depending on the language that is used), etc. -- Sandy Heierbacher -- Beth Noveck speak

You seem to be describing something very wide-ranging, that I think is good. As John mentioned, databases are well-suited to casting a net too wide and letting the core of contributed info gather with as much on the periphery as naturally collects there. Comprehensiveness is worth a slight blur of focus, yes? -- Jed Miller Moderator comment: Excellent point

Let me hold the queue for one sec..... -- Beth Noveck speak

slight blur ok, big blur destructive -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

Let me tell you what we've done in the draft.... -- Beth Noveck speak

I do not, personally, want to limit this to electronic only.... -- Beth Noveck speak

and, whereas my personal interests are in deliberative and participatory, I believe that we should understand the wider field and that not everyone describes themselves in this way -- Beth Noveck speak

therefore... -- Beth Noveck speak

we created a set of "labels" -- Beth Noveck speak

I'm goin to post them so you can see... -- Beth Noveck speak

exactly... not just electronic... there needs to be human touch as much as possible. -- John Spady Moderator comment: Excellent point

I agree: do not limit to electronic -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment:

Yes, methodologies and practices, e.g. citizen jury is SO much more important than the tools. -- Beth Noveck speak

So we created a set of theory labels first... -- Beth Noveck speak

Sorry, one sec...I closed the window... -- Beth Noveck speak

Cultural Theory, Deliberative Democracy, Direct Democracy, Participatory Democracy, Procedural Democracy -- Beth Noveck speak

We can add to that -- Beth Noveck speak

Here are the ideological labels... -- Beth Noveck speak

Activist, Charitable, Civil Society, Grass Roots,Religious - Buddhist, Religious - Christian, Religious - Hindu, Religious - Jewish, Religious - Muslim, Religious - Other, Scholar/Research Oriented, Other -- Beth Noveck speak

These are just illustrations and I'm happy for specific additions by e-mail or here -- Beth Noveck speak

Now the "practice" labels -- Beth Noveck speak

Activism/Hacktivism, Civil Society Building, Decision Making, Deliberation, Dispute Resolution, Education/Community Information, E-Government, Electoral Politics/Voting & E-Voting, Fundraising, Group Formation/Organization, Information Exchange, Opinion Formation, Party Politics, Protest/E-Protest, Public Discourse, Service Provision/E-Government -- Beth Noveck speak

You get the idea....a variety of different labeling schemes so that people can describe themselves in the ways they see themselves and their work and other people can search what's of interest to them. You would be able to select as many or as few as you choose. -- Beth Noveck speak

Buy-in from all possible contributors is probably going to require a list that's been vetted by a "committee" of some kind... -- Jed Miller Moderator comment:

Guess what? You're the Committee?! ;-) -- Beth Noveck speak

You'd definitely need some kind of brief definition for these things. Many of the people I work with would self-identify as 'intergroup dialogue practitioners' or 'nonviolent communication practitioners' or 'dialogue facilitators.' They fit into some of these labels but might not know it! -- Sandy Heierbacher shout

Whoops! Didn't mean to shout that. -- Sandy Heierbacher shout

Do you think the answer, Sandy, is to lengthen the list with everyone's input? -- Beth Noveck speak

You know all these terms that I never would think of, for example. -- Beth Noveck speak

So the mission is something like, "to create an exchange of information about work, research and practices" related to, in some sense of the word, "democracy" as defined by those who contribute the information? -- Brook Manville Moderator comment: Does anyone want to respond to that?

Should we submit additional ideas here for the labels, or do you want to take those by E-mail? Culture Jamming would also seem to fit , for example -- Robert Heverly Moderator comment: Excellent point

I think we should discuss mission and purpose and make sure everyone understands and likes the structure/concept and we can talk about specific lists via e-mail. -- Beth Noveck speak

To clarify, so what is the purpose of the labels? So that if I want to see all the groups that do x, y, and z, I can sort them by those categories? -- Joseph Goldman -- Beth Noveck speak

Yes. -- Beth Noveck speak

It also would allow people, Joe, to identify themselves rather than be pigeon-holed by others and still make it searchable. -- Beth Noveck speak

Maybe. Or maybe to have sub-categories. Public Discourse subcategories could include some of what I mentioned. And no, I don't know all of the terms, but can help - and can get help from others. We had to think about this for the D&D conference. -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment: Good idea

I would be willing to be on the committee with Jed, so long as it did not take too long. (How does one send a whisper?) -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment:

Probably can't have too many labels, though. People will just check off all the boxes so they're info is seen by the most number of people! -- Sandy Heierbacher Yes, there has to be a discrete number. -- Beth Noveck speak

Sometimes one legal entity or individual is not comfortable to be included in any of the labels listed. There will be a place in the labl 'others' that will allow such entity or individual specify its/his field? -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment: Good idea

We have included lots of areas for uploading original text and descriptions,too. -- Beth Noveck speak

The challenge is to do that but also create something that's searchable. -- Beth Noveck speak

Needless to say I agree. If you are designing a product or service, one should separate--and begin with--purpose, audience, and expected outcome, and then separately get into the particulars of feature/function. Pardon my consulting-ese but we need to separate strategy from tactics. With all due respect this is conflating these things. -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

The project description document begins to articulate a purpose and mission, Brook, and we should ask whether it is well-enough articulated. -- Beth Noveck speak

I agree, Carlos, that sometimes organizations don't want to be "labeled," but the less self-categorization that occurs, the less useful the database becomes (someone searches e-democracy won't get the groups who consider that label "bad" for some reason). I'm not sure how to avoid this effect . . . -- Robert Heverly Moderator comment:

Here's my strategy for how I self-define e-thepeople. I want to use as few words as possible to define my organization in a way that distinguishes me from other orgs. If you had those labels, and not much else, I'd be happy. But if I have to search for near fits, or categorize myself along other kinds of labels, I get uncomfortable. It seems to be a fundamental conflict between self-definitions and externally imposed categories. -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment:

A few broad labels with clear descriptions would help people self identify and make it searchable -- Sheila Collins Moderator comment:

I think the document is great and I appreciated that it proposed a survey, or environmental scan, not a network of organizations or a mission per se. -- Jed Miller Moderator comment:

I agree with Sheila - plus maybe adding some sub-categories based on what we know about how people currently identify their work. (Hi, Sheila!) -- Sandy Heierbacher shout

Here's Brook's earlier statement on mission: "to create an exchange of information about work, research and practices" related to, in some sense of the word, "democracy" as defined by those who contribute the information? -- Beth Noveck speak

Brook, do you like your own definition? Does this move you? Is it enough of a "bribe" as Jed said? -- Beth Noveck speak

in addition to "building an exchange" we seek to build upon the information and improve our democratic processes -- Chun Li This gets back to the question of ultimate purpose. -- Beth Noveck speak

I, for one, have a purpose, which is to gather more info in order to improve democracy and deepen participatory practices, as Chun said, in the digital age. -- Beth Noveck speak

Yeah, is it an exchange or a repository? -- Jed Miller Moderator comment: Does anyone want to respond to that?

by the way, how many orgs are you thinking will participate? it seems that there is some sort of logical relation between nuymber of categories and labels so that the matrix is not too sparsely populated -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment:

Michael, we'd need a lot of people to participate to make it interesting. -- Beth Noveck speak

I think this needs to be intimately connected to trying to create a "community" of practice... i.e. what is trying to be done through the Delib. Democracy Consortium and NCDD. -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

Lots of people doing direct activism work (organizing political protests, etc.) would feel as if they were a part of this according to that description, but would we want that? We need to specify what 'deliberative democracy' is in a way that is descriptive but not exclusionary to those who don't use the term. -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment:

Beth--I apologize. I had read your earlier mission statement, but didn't understand it was "taken as read" for all participating in this. I think it's good but deserves its own discussion before moving on. I for one have some comments on it. -- Brook Manville -- Beth Noveck speak

It needs to be redrafted...that was the text used to beg for money but the site will need a project description...are these comments ones you want to share now, Brook, or via e-mail? -- Beth Noveck speak

I disagree w/Joe. I think you want to give all contributors (and perhaps even viewers) the MEANS to be in touch, but it doesn't seem like you're out to foster or facilitate that. That's Sandy and Mike and Joe's job. -- Jed Miller Moderator comment:

Exchange is more interesting since the users will be more actively involved. -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment:

One idea is to use it as a tool to help practitioners and researchers find each other. -- Beth Noveck speak

Part of the bribe to participate is to show that this really will go somewhere and not just be something that is started and then dropped. So if there is enough staffing for this for each potential group to be contacted with something of a personal touch, then this should lead to good participation -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment:

Jed (hi Jed) I don't think it should be an either /or but both an repository so that people can find useful information and an exchange of valuable resources. -- Sheila Collins Moderator comment:

Jed - I think it is a repository and the basis for an exchange. The repository creates a focal point that get people together, allowing and stimulating exchanges -- Caio Pereira Moderator comment:

Jed -- I agree that it isn't the job of this site to build community, but unless it is connected with the other efforts, I think it will die off -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment: Does anyone disagree?

beth, dozens? hundreds? thousands? It makes a difference, because in the current matrix there are hundreds of thousands of possible elements in the matrix. -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment:

well, you use the word "inventory" and others have asked about "exchange" vs "Repository". I think one big issue is how much it is intended to foster action, and to what degree it will in some way or other "Take a point of view" -- Brook Manville Hmmm - "branding" is key. -- Beth Noveck speak

Let me interrupt to ask a procedural question...I promised you a one-hour discussion and there are a lot of postings coming in and questions I'm still holding in the queue...so I think we need a couple of ballots to decide how to move forward..I'll post incoming stuff and send out a vote. -- Beth Noveck speak

Point of view=much bigger risk, much narrower reach. -- Jed Miller shout

point of view much more interesting to those who suffer from information overload. Don' -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

think about, for example, "the whole earth catalogue"--an avowed inventory of resources, but very much bounded by a point of view -- Brook Manville Moderator comment: Excellent point

I think the connection is the right idea, Joe -- link up the networks and consortia properly to show contributors and readers HERE how to find and communicate with each other THERE. -- Jed Miller Moderator comment:

I definitely agree with that, Joe. - It needs to be connected with other efforts to survive. -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment:

Since the majority voted for 5, we'll do no more than 10. I'll review the queue of "held" questions and please start thinking about next steps. Feel free to create a vote using LET'S VOTE -- Beth Noveck speak

Is there a way for other efforts that are gaining in power at this point (NCDD and the Deliberative Democracy Consortium) to have some ownership in this project? -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment:

Of course, we should talk about that...there's no "ownership" here per se and, in fact, we'd love to share the bills with more people ;-) -- Beth Noveck speak

What we'll building now is very limited because of resources. -- Beth Noveck speak

We are using programmers in India at $25/hour, though, so we're getting mega-bang for the buck. -- Beth Noveck speak

Bills! I didn't say anything about bills! :) -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment:

How limited? I thought there was Hewlett money behind this. -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment:

Too bad that Terry Amsler (from Hewlett) isn't here or we'd gang up on him -- Beth Noveck speak

$25/hour is cheap? -- Sandy Heierbacher For IT work? oh, yeah -- Beth Noveck speak

I think that we must remember that technology is only part of the problem. We need promotion, buy-in, participation - these are not afterthoughts! -- Michael Weiksner Moderator comment:

Should be a discussion item at the Delib. Demo Consortium steering committee meeting next month. i.e how this is connected. -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

LOL -- Beth Noveck speak

point of view doesn't have to be 'strong' ...unfairly worded -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

How does deliberative democracy link to the American BUSINESS of politics and democracy. That seems to include running campaigns, party consulting, media on compaigns. That's what is interesting to me. If we get into such a wide range of issues related to "democracy", things get pretty mushy. Does this project help link desliberative democracies to the business of politics and democracy? -- Scott Aikens Moderator comment: Excellent point

I didn't vote because I think it depends on what we mean by strong point of view. For something to be oriented towards strengthening the health of democracy, is that too strong a point of view? -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

Okay - I've promised everyone we'd end now...quick discussion of next steps and final comments... -- Beth Noveck speak

Poll was by me, by the way, not Beth. Was trying to tease out a disagreement I think I have with Brook -- Jed Miller Moderator comment:

I agree with Joe. Linking dd to the business of politics and democracy is a strong point of view I would endorse. I might not think other pov's would have as positive an effect. My bias. -- Scott Aikens Moderator comment:

Hear it now from me. If there's NO point of view, this site will die. -- Brook Manville shout

So what do you consider a POV? -- Beth Noveck speak

But if there is a point of view, then it should be something like healthy democracy (which just happens to be the title of my forthcoming book, so perhaps my suggestion is too personal) -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment:

(don't worry, we can sell books on the site?!! hee hee) -- Beth Noveck speak

Brook, was that phrasing a reference to the "Pump you up!" sketch on Saturday Night Live? -- Jed Miller Moderator comment:

This was a great conversation (what a great system you've set up with unchat!). I want to help with this project in whatever way I can. What's next? -- Sandy Heierbacher Moderator comment:

So what are the key pieces of work here: (1) defining mission, (2) solidifying categories, (3) figuring out how to connect to other efforts, (4) ?????? -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

I agree. It has something to do with advocacy, promotion, etc . -- Brook Manville Moderator comment:

The 'point of view' held at this site should be that to strengthen democracy, we need to involve ordinary citizens and stakeholders in decisionmaking. Or yes, healthy democracy, defined broadly as citizen involvement. No? -- Sandy Heierbacher shout

Oh, yeah, we should be unabashedly PRO democratic and pro citizens and participation etc. -- Beth Noveck speak

Normative is good. -- Beth Noveck speak

normative is point of view -- Brook Manville shout

But we still want to gather as much data as possible -- Beth Noveck speak

Okay...next steps, folks... -- Beth Noveck speak

How about specific comments on the labels and the questions which we've posted to the web so the prorammers can get to work? -- Beth Noveck speak

comments via e-mail that is -- Beth Noveck speak

You can send everything to us and we'll gather and then send to the group so everyone doesn't get nine zillion emails. -- Beth Noveck speak

I propose a debate and vote on mission and "normative" slant of site. -- Brook Manville Another session? Or a vote now? What do you have in mind? -- Beth Noveck speak

By the way, I agree with Brook that this is a good idea in addition. -- Beth Noveck speak

another session. It's not a short topic -- Brook Manville shout

It would be great if Beth or Chun could send out some summary with the 3-4 critical questions that they need answered to move forward -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment: Good idea

I think we need to establish some inicial steps.... -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment:

Next steps- a) next meeting b) feedback on label c) mission statement -- Sheila Collins Moderator comment:

Sounds good. Could you send us a Word version of the different labels and questions? -- Sandy Heierbacher Yes -- Beth Noveck speak

I gotta go. Goodbye -- Ned Crosby Moderator comment:

Okay - here's what we'll do -- Beth Noveck speak

Good bye! -- Michael Weiksner shout

We will recirculate the docs. -- Beth Noveck speak

We will ask you for your immediate feedback on questions, labels that immediately come to mind., -- Beth Noveck speak

We'll schedule another session to debate mission/POV -- Beth Noveck speak

Does this sound right? -- Beth Noveck speak

Oh and we'll circulate the transcript -- Beth Noveck speak

And you'll think about how you can help. What you want to do. -- Beth Noveck speak

good. thanks beth. gotta go. -- Brook Manville shout

And if you know any rich relatives -- Beth Noveck speak

Thanks for having us! Bye all. -- Jed Miller shout

Can we invite others (like Tom Atlee) to join our next session? -- Sandy Heierbacher Absolutely. -- Beth Noveck speak

This Unchat technology is great! -- Sheila Collins Moderator comment:

Ok -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment:

Thanks Beth -- Sheila Collins Moderator comment:

For the next meeting we should talk about only one issue. -- Carlos Motta I agree. -- Beth Noveck speak

Sounds good to me. -- Joseph Goldman Moderator comment:

Bye all and thanks. You'll hear from us shortly. -- Beth Noveck speak

Bye. Have a good weekend. -- Joseph Goldman shout

Feel free to e-mail any thoughts, ideas. -- Beth Noveck speak

Bye to all thanks -- Chun Li shout

Thanks. -- Scott Aikens Moderator comment:

Bye. Have a good weekend (here in Brazil is 35ēC now...) -- Carlos Motta Moderator comment:

The end -- Beth Noveck speak

Is it going to be possibel to search the text documents too? -- Caio Pereira Moderator comment:

Not only "news" or "encyclopedia" style, but also analysis--both internal and external--"this worked for us" "this worked for them", which will make it more useful overall, to seek improvements -- Robert Heverly Moderator comment:

Chat ended, Thu Nov 21 12:25:34 EST 2002